Enjoying this series. David Graeber is one of my faves, such a shame we lost his brilliance from this world. Be so interesting to understand a world in which poverty is largely eradicated and the impact this would have on crime and violence.
Total aside but I loved this sentence.
"The anthropological record shows that change is the only constant, diversity the only common pattern."
Interesting observatons on alternatives to maintstream policed societies. Three or four questions/observations come to mind: 1. I understand in the Norwegian criminal justice system the lawyers for both the defendant and the prosecution owe a duty to the court first, and to the cause of justice, rather than to their client. This certainly would change the entire evidential burden...and change outcomes. Is there any evidence that this might change the incidence of criminal behavior -- i.e. a less forgiving but more "just" justice system? 2. I know that Norwegians have access to alcohol, and there is a drug culture, I understand. Is that true of the other culture(s)? It would seem some of the atributes of alcohol consumption I've observed are uncontrolled rage and violence, and policing spends a lot of time where I live in North America dealing with domestic violence often fueled by alcohol. 3. You also do not address the ownership of guns. It appears easy access to guns not only fuels self-harm through impulsive suicides and has its social consequences but it also facilitates interpersonal violence. Any reason you did not address this? Or did I miss it? Finally, Norway benefits from large state-controlled natural resource pools, primarily oil and gas. The State is the capitalist. That makes it easy to distribute wealth more equally. The capitalist model has many challenges, but any model of wealth distribution is easier if you have a lot of it...and in primitive socities in the tropics I'm betting a lot of food literally grows on trees. If so, no food scarcity, and little conflict. Not to mention little need for a notion of private property and disputes over ownership. And it's also related to the measurement of wealth...free goods have no price, despite their value. So "poverty" would be rather ideal. Just a thought.
Seems like we're on the same wavelength! You're points about guns, property, and poverty are definitely where I'm at too. There are so many threads to follow; I hope these letters can serve as stepping stones for folks to expand on.
I’m enjoying your conversation! I’m currently in an MA Anthropology program and I’ve become more Hobbesian as I’ve gone deeper into this world (Graeber’s On Kings btw pushed me towards the same direction). I’d love to see a response to Elle’s game-theory question. A society with a sociopathic strongmen that can organize war bands would conquer those that don’t. How could societies defend themselves and survive, aside from fleeing into the hinterlands?
I think that one of the reasons we don’t do as civic engagement as we could is the that we lack the time. We give so much of our time to work, there is so little time left in a week (especially if it’s your job to feed and maintain a home) to do the other things.
We expect that since we have spent so much time specializing in one area, that we can outsource things like local governance to a third party.
In my perfect world, we would work 3 days, spend 1 day in civic engagement, 1 day with family and friends, 1 day attending to the things that need our attention, and one day of rest.
Enjoying this series. David Graeber is one of my faves, such a shame we lost his brilliance from this world. Be so interesting to understand a world in which poverty is largely eradicated and the impact this would have on crime and violence.
Total aside but I loved this sentence.
"The anthropological record shows that change is the only constant, diversity the only common pattern."
I'm glad it resonated! And yes, Graeber is one of my personal heroes. So grateful for all the work he did while with us.
Really enjoying this full exchange, just want to make sure David Wengrow gets his due as co author of The Dawn of Everything!
Interesting observatons on alternatives to maintstream policed societies. Three or four questions/observations come to mind: 1. I understand in the Norwegian criminal justice system the lawyers for both the defendant and the prosecution owe a duty to the court first, and to the cause of justice, rather than to their client. This certainly would change the entire evidential burden...and change outcomes. Is there any evidence that this might change the incidence of criminal behavior -- i.e. a less forgiving but more "just" justice system? 2. I know that Norwegians have access to alcohol, and there is a drug culture, I understand. Is that true of the other culture(s)? It would seem some of the atributes of alcohol consumption I've observed are uncontrolled rage and violence, and policing spends a lot of time where I live in North America dealing with domestic violence often fueled by alcohol. 3. You also do not address the ownership of guns. It appears easy access to guns not only fuels self-harm through impulsive suicides and has its social consequences but it also facilitates interpersonal violence. Any reason you did not address this? Or did I miss it? Finally, Norway benefits from large state-controlled natural resource pools, primarily oil and gas. The State is the capitalist. That makes it easy to distribute wealth more equally. The capitalist model has many challenges, but any model of wealth distribution is easier if you have a lot of it...and in primitive socities in the tropics I'm betting a lot of food literally grows on trees. If so, no food scarcity, and little conflict. Not to mention little need for a notion of private property and disputes over ownership. And it's also related to the measurement of wealth...free goods have no price, despite their value. So "poverty" would be rather ideal. Just a thought.
Seems like we're on the same wavelength! You're points about guns, property, and poverty are definitely where I'm at too. There are so many threads to follow; I hope these letters can serve as stepping stones for folks to expand on.
I’m enjoying your conversation! I’m currently in an MA Anthropology program and I’ve become more Hobbesian as I’ve gone deeper into this world (Graeber’s On Kings btw pushed me towards the same direction). I’d love to see a response to Elle’s game-theory question. A society with a sociopathic strongmen that can organize war bands would conquer those that don’t. How could societies defend themselves and survive, aside from fleeing into the hinterlands?
Beautifully said!
I think that one of the reasons we don’t do as civic engagement as we could is the that we lack the time. We give so much of our time to work, there is so little time left in a week (especially if it’s your job to feed and maintain a home) to do the other things.
We expect that since we have spent so much time specializing in one area, that we can outsource things like local governance to a third party.
In my perfect world, we would work 3 days, spend 1 day in civic engagement, 1 day with family and friends, 1 day attending to the things that need our attention, and one day of rest.
You're so right about work stealing away our time. We've gotta stop working if we wanna live differently. Also I love your perfect world schedule!